We Have the Most Exciting Sex Life in Our Friend Group. It All Has to Do With a Lumbering Idiot Named Cletus.

Pillow Talk is a series that deciphers our mixed signals about sex—who’s actually having it, who isn’t, and why—one interview at a time. Get in touch to suggest a subject. This week, we meet Josie and Devin, married thirtysomething lesbians who have one of the most creative sex lives I, a jaded hag, have ever heard of. Their secret? Trust, nonmonogamy, and an XXL dose of Oscar-worthy role-play. This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity. Slate: I’m just going to cut to the chase: You two do a lot of role-play. Josie: Yeah! It rules. Devin: I think we’re pretty creative. What kind of role-play do you do? Josie: OK, so there are three main scenes we play out. The first is Cletus. Cletus is sort of a big, lumbering idiot. He’s unwieldy—the kind of guy who could kill you by hugging you. In the scene, he’s always fucking a milkmaid. He comes back sweaty and smelling like pussy and milk at the end of a long day baling hay. Sometimes I catch him in the act. Which one of you is Cletus? Devin: Me. Josie: I’m the lady of the house. I guess Cletus is the farmhand. I’m outside the scene, telling Cletus what to do—observing his work. The milkmaids and farm animals are imaginary. Cletus can’t keep his hands off any of us. Devin: Josie likes to be way outside her body during sex. I like to be in my body. So usually it’s me doing the fucking in the fantasy. I’m the uncontrollable horndog, and Josie is more restrained, directing the scene. You’re both tops. Is that difficult for you, Devin? Devin: I mean, I love to top, but I’m also more open to bottoming than Josie. Josie: In our shared fantasies, I’m the psychological top, but sometimes I do top from the bottom—do you know what I mean? Cletus will fuck me with his hands after he fucks the imaginary milkmaids, but only if I make him beg for it. It’s all about me being able to control his animalistic urges. Devin: Sometimes, I wear a little red bandana on my head. What a beautiful visual. What are the other two scenes? Josie: In one, we’re partners on a storm-chasing team. There’s a big tornado coming to destroy a small Midwestern town, and Devin and I have to hide in this tornado shelter with all these hot cheerleaders, and we have to fuck them before the tornado gets there. Devin plays a hot older male meteorologist—it’s kind of like: We’re all going to die anyway, so bend over. That one’s fun because you have to get off as fast as possible before the tornado gets you. Devin: That one’s fun. The other is the Magda fantasy. Magda is a Russian massage therapist. Josie: She’s, like, 57 years old. A heavy smoker. Heavyset. She works at a not very nice massage parlor in Queens, New York, but at the end of the day, she cares about her job. She just wants to make the clients happy. Devin came up with her character. … How?! Josie: She came from deep within Devin’s brain. I think she was giving me a massage and it got sexy and then Magda came out. I feel like a lot of our characters are Devin’s alter egos. Devin: I just like thinking about different kinds of physically strong women. Josie: As someone who hates improv, I hate to say this, but role play sort of follows the same rules as improv. You come up with something and just go for it. Devin: We riff with our characters, explore what motivates them, what they like sexually—what turns each of them on in the scene. For example, with Magda, she’s a total service top. She’s just tough! Am I correct that there’s always some element of danger and helplessness here? Josie: For me, that helps. Sometimes there’s a power differential between the characters. We also play with the element of time—time running out, or our characters getting caught because they’re taking too long. Was role-play something you guys were into before you met, or is this a unique thing that occurred between you? Josie: Here and there, but nothing ongoing. Devin: I’ve never role-played with anyone but Josie. What was the first scene you did together? Devin: I think it started a few years ago as a way to spice things up. Josie: Oh my God—it was during COVID. Everyone started wearing those blue nitrile gloves to unpack their groceries. And I kind of developed a thing for them. Devin: Yeah, the gloves. We started with a doctor-patient thing. What makes a good role-play? Devin: Not breaking character. And laughing. Josie: Yeah, definitely just having fun and going where the story takes you. Sometimes we’re in the middle of a scene and I’m like, “What the fuck are we doing?” But I roll with it. Wow. Do you guys ever just have regular sex? Devin: Sometimes! I personally would like to more. I like to make love, you know? I’d like to fuck my wife! But Josie has a bit of a difficult time with intimacy. Josie: I really do. I’m actually turned on by the lack of intimacy. The more impersonal, the better. So sometimes the way I get around that is to actually take myself out of the equation and substitute different characters or scenarios I find hot. That way, I can get into sex and connect with Devin on an intimate level—I just need to trick my brain into thinking that something inappropriate or taboo is happening first. Devin: The role-play is kind of a happy compromise. We both get what we need out of it, we just take a different route than some couples do. Josie: We also have “regular” sex with other women. You take full advantage of your open marriage. Josie: We do. We were monogamous for the first few years of our relationship, but neither of us are monogamous people, so we opened up. Our relationship got a lot closer and more stable after that. It gives us a sense of freedom and camaraderie that we both need. We usually hook up with other people together. Devin: Threesomes. Occasional group sex. Sometimes we fist girls at parties. I imagine that’s not where you break out the tornado role-play? Josie: Right. We go to sex parties, and that’s usually not where we role-play. I can get into casual, somewhat anonymous sex without role-play because of the lack of intimacy, so we usually have less theatrical forms of sex with other people. The role-play is mostly just for Devin and me. Devin: It’s nice to have something that’s just for us. Would you be open to other people starring in some of these fantasies? Devin: Sure, if they’re cool. Josie: Cletus needs fresh meat. You two are one of the most happily married couples I know. Is it because of Cletus? Josie: I would definitely say that the sexual freedom and experimentation we have keeps things interesting. We’re both very sexual people, and we have a lot of chemistry in that area, and I think that bleeds into other areas of our relationship. Devin: I would give the credit to the meteorologist and the cheerleaders. They’re really hot, man.