Jon Bernthal on His ‘Brotherly Dynamic’ With Tom Holland in ‘Spider-Man’ and ‘The Odyssey,’ and Why Punisher Is Peter Parker’s ‘Cautionary Tale’

Jon Bernthal and Tom Holland‘s superhero trajectory is so intertwined, it could make its own comic book storyline. In 2015, on the set of the period drama “Pilgrimage,” Bernthal and Holland filmed each other’s audition tapes for their Marvel roles as the Punisher and Spider-Man, respectively. Now, after playing the parts for a decade, they share the screen for the first time in “Brand New Day.” And the Sony/Marvel movie, which is now playing in theaters, is their second project together in as many weeks, following Christopher Nolan’s “The Odyssey.” “It’s great to be able to do two in a row with my friend Tom,” Bernthal tells Variety. “It’s just so beautiful to come full circle.” Popular on Variety Bernthal took Variety’s call while he raced to the airport to finally head back to the west coast after a long tenure in NYC, where he’d starred in “Dog Day Afternoon” on Broadway, then did back-to-back press tours for “The Odyssey” — where he’d waxed poetic on his character Menelaus’ counsel of Holland’s Telemachus — and “Spider-Man: Brand New Day” — where Frank “The Punisher” Castle becomes Peter Parker’s unlikey confidant, using his life as cautionary tale. Lately, life has been blissfully busy for Bernthal: the past few months also saw him star in the massively successful Netflix limited series “His and Hers” opposite Tessa Thompson; headline the Disney+ special “The Punisher: One Last Kill,” which he co-wrote with director Reinaldo Marcus Greeen; and wrap up his Emmy-winning role on FX’s “The Bear,” with a special episode written by him and Ebon Moss-Bachrach titled “Gary.” “Beyond anything, I’m just enormously grateful,” Bernthal says. “To be in New York for this time and doing this play on Broadway, I was very much in touch with that 18-year-old kid who had this dream, that at times seemed sort of impossible and far away,” he continues, referring to his younger self. “I really wanted to honor that kid by doing that play. And when I look at these other projects that I got to have a real hand in creating and writing myself, I’m just so grateful. It’s been a really magical year.” But when Bernthal was revealed to be joining the cast of “Spider-Man: Brand New Day,” early reports didn’t make too much of the moment. Most stories (including mine) suggested that Mark Ruffalo’s Bruce Banner/Hulk would slide into the mentor role that’s been a key dynamic in Tom Holland’s previous “Spider-Man” movies, with everyone from Robert Downey Jr.’s Iron Man/Tony Stark to past Spider-Men Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield playing wise sage to Peter Parker. After all, Bruce is one of the original Avengers, and until now, Frank has been relegated to Marvel’s TV output — first in Marvel’s Netflix shows and more recently in “Daredevil: Born Again” and his own standalone special on Disney+. Plus, other Spider-Man characters, like villains Scorpion (Michael Mando) and Tombstone (Marvin Jones III), would also appear. But it should’ve been obvious that Frank would become Peter’s confidant in “Brand New Day” – and not just because the anti-hero is a mainstay in the Spider-Man comics. A lot of it comes down to the dynamic between the actors who play them. “Jon and Tom have a rapport that would be very difficult to replicate in any scenario, and when the two of them are on screen, I could watch them banter for half an hour,” says “Brand New Day” director Destin Daniel Cretton. “I would just let them go off script, and so many wonderful moments came out of that that ended up in the final cut.” In “Brand New Day,” Bernthal’s Punisher is still the lethal vigilante fans know and love. His backstory is tragic: the former U.S. Marine’s wife and children are murdered by the mob, leaving him aimless and (justifiably) angry at the world. And, as the Punisher, Frank is known to enact particularly brutal, bloody vengeance. How could that darkness fit into the heretofore brightly colored “Spider-Man” universe? “I was very aware of that and very protective of Frank, and I really want to deliver for the fans and the people that he means so much to,” Bernthal begins. “And look, that was really the question. That was really the issue. How tonally would he fit into this world?” Bernthal answers that question below and shares more about his “Spider-Man” experience — including what he thinks is next for the Punisher in the MCU. Fans are very excited about getting the Punisher on the big screen for “Brand New Day,” but the last time we saw Frank was in the very R-rated Disney+ special, “One Last Kill.” What was it like to make him PG-13 for this movie? I was very clear with Destin: we have to believe that he would be able to walk off the set of “One Last Kill,” and be that same guy walking onto the set of “Brand New Day,” while also honoring that tonally it’s a much different project. I deeply appreciated that Amy Pascal, Destin and Tom Rothman all wanted the exact same thing. They all really respected and wanted his version of Frank that I’ve been delivering over the years. A lot of times in this business, when there’s an issue, or a little bit of a conflict or a problem, something you’re trying to figure out, sometimes the answer is to sort of skirt around it, or to avoid it, or to gloss over it, rather than to dive into it and to really explore it. I feel like we really hit it head on. My dear friend Colton Hill, who’s a Marine and a Green Beret, who I trained with for years, was on set with me as the Punisher. He was behind the camera every time I was there, and he was so helpful. I was so grateful not only that Destin welcomed that, but he was hungry for it, and they became very good friends. It’s a real testament to the kind of filmmaker Destin is that he really wanted to accomplish both of those things — preserving Frank and blending him into the tone of this film. I laughed at Peter shooting a web over Frank’s mouth to stop him from swearing. What did you think when you saw that in the script? We really leaned a lot on improvisation and finding things on the day. What was great about this project was that you have all kinds of the bells and whistles — I mean, this is no mystery; this is a huge franchise and the level of artistry and talent is immense and unparalleled — but at the end of the day there’s a real vigor and vitality in going after the truth of the scene on the day. It was not a strange thing on that set for them to stop things and have the actors and Destin explore and rewrite and find things and get closer to the kernel of the scene, or to explore through improvisation. I was really grateful for that, and I was very pleasantly surprised by it. This is a new lens in which we see Frank, but it’s not a different character. It’s going to preserve what people love about him most. Jon Bernthal as The Punisher in “Spider-Man: Brand New Day.” Jay Maidment/Columbia/Sony Let’s talk about how Frank and Peter’s relationship evolves. The movie leans into this idea that, in some ways, Frank is a bit of a cautionary tale for Peter, as he disappears into his work and isolates himself. How did you find that dynamic? Tom and I have known each other for a really long time. We have this natural big brother-little brother dynamic. It’s important to always note that Frank is a guy who’s spiraling and reeling from trauma. He’s not looking for any light at the end of the tunnel. He’s not looking to get out of the darkness. He’s looking to dive right into it, and he’s also quite aware that this is no way to live. I’m always interested in characters who build walls around their heart, who reject the outside world. Reject the light. Reject friendship, companionship, love. What I love about those kinds of characters is that’s actually an impossible task for a human being. No matter what wall you build around your heart, there’s got to be little holes for the light to shine through. And Tom’s performance as Spider-Man really is that light. It’s very clear to Frank the steps that you know Spider-Man is headed [down]; he’s trying to emulate this kind of darkness and this lone wolf mentality. Frank looks at that clearly as what it is: that’s absolutely no place to live. He doesn’t want to go to the places that [Frank has] gone, and he doesn’t want this guy to go feel the things that he feels. This is not something ever to emulate. He sees himself as a cautionary tale. You’ve known Tom for more than a decade. What was it like to shoot those scenes for “The Odyssey,” where you also have a bit of a mentor-mentee relationship, and then come onto this set and play a similar dynamic? It’s been truly magical to do two films back-to-back with an old friend. The real magic of this business, the real takeaway, is the people that you get to meet along the way. I got to know Tom as a 17-year-old kid, almost 13 years ago. I’d never seen anything like his drive and determination to get [Spider-Man]. The belief that he had it himself. I loved being a part of that. Over the years, to see how he’s grown as a movie star and an international celebrity, but then to be able to walk on set of this thing that he’s had such a hand in building — he’s one of the main creative drivers behind this huge [franchise] — I’m really proud of him. To see him now as a man, to see him in love, to see him so solid, to see him so sturdy, but also to see that the things that I loved about him when I first met him are still totally present. He’s a family-first guy. He’s kind to everybody. He’s patient. He’s courteous. He’s unbelievably hardworking and diligent. I really love him. It was a great experience for me to see how far he’s come and that he’s become this unbelievable man, but to also see that he hasn’t changed. To your point about people who you’ve gotten to continue this journey with: your “The Bear” co-star Liza Colon-Zayas is also in “Brand New Day.” What was it like to have her as a part of the Spider-Man universe? She’s great and “The Bear” has been such a gift for me. I have so much trust in Chris Storer — he’s singular as a TV creator — so, to come back and have that episode with Liza [Season 3’s “Napkins”], that was such a cool gift. It was great seeing her in London, and I’m really happy that she gets to be part of this. Speaking of “The Bear,” we have to talk about the surprise episode: “Gary.” As a creative, what has it opened for you to be able to get into the weeds with these characters — from Michael Berzatto in the “Bear” to “Punisher: One Last Kill,” and your upcoming series, “The Bottoms” (in development at FX)? Look, I love it. Being an actor and trying to live as an artist has really saved my life. Beyond my family, it’s the single most important thing to me. I’ve been able to grow and explore things as an actor that I’m just so enormously grateful for, and made me a better father, a better husband, a better friend, a better human. I’m so grateful that I’ve found this other thing that I love. I get such joy from it, such satisfaction. I can’t really begin to say how much it says about Chris that he gave us this episode to write. To have a show that’s, one, so successful and two, so deeply personal and sacred to him, but to also to treat it with such confidence and such sturdiness to not only allow but to demand the other creatives who are a part of it to collaborate fully and to bring every inch of themselves and their own creativity and their own ideas to it, think nothing real shows genius in an auteur quite like that. It’s the thing that I find uniform among all the greats that I’ve worked with. They demand collaboration. The best idea wins. They’re not ruled by their egos. Chris is just one of a kind. I’m so grateful for this opportunity for me and my dear friend Ebon to explore these characters deeper. The amount of trust in us is so beautiful, and we really did not want to let him down. While you were doing all these different jobs, “The Bear” aired its series finale. How did you commemorate the show? And celebrate the Season 4 Emmy nominations? I got to be on stage with Ebon every single night on Broadway while it was slowing down, and I think I actually watched the season even before he did. It’s such an interesting process for me, unlike anything else that I’ve ever done before, because I’m really not there very much. I’m talked about, and I sort of drop in, but first and foremost, I’m a fan. Really, it was this gift that came out of absolutely nowhere, and it just continued to open me up and challenge me as an artist and provide these unbelievable opportunities. The thing that I love most is I don’t read the script. I don’t know what’s going to happen. I get to watch with everyone else, in this unique position of lingering behind the scenes and in the hearts and imaginations of the people on screen. I honestly thought that this season was the best season, and it was such a beautiful and bold way to end the show. To celebrate what makes a show like this — real collaboration, real joy, real family, falling down and getting back up. It was just such a beautiful ending, such a beautiful season. “Brand New Day” is hopefully not going to be the end for Frank Castle. Do you think we’re going to see more R-rated or PG-13 Punisher going forward? Is he going to team up with the Defenders in “Daredevil: Born Again” Season 3? What do you want to see next for him? The great thing about what we get to do is you never know what’s going to come next, and that’s something that I come to really embrace and love and celebrate. I don’t know what the next story is with Frank, but I know it’s out there. I think there’s a little bit of Frank Castle in all of us. It’s been such a gift to be able to explore the darkness that is Frank and his life and his struggle and his mission. I’m really eager and excited to keep going with Frank and to see what’s next. But honestly, I don’t know what that is, and I’m still excited to find out.